So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. A Real Ale Loving Scottish Crime Writer. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. So multi-part question here. Just keep it shorter than his response. He mentioned about the Septuagint. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Alright? So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. All right. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. Anything else you might disagree with? The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. Thank you very much, Steve. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. Even a son of Mary would be interesting, rather its the fact that Jesus was referred through a metronym rather than a patronym, that normally in the ancient near east, you would refer to someone as the son of their father, the son of Joseph.. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. So to talk about things that came up in this debate, there are things that came up that were not debating, things like Sola Scriptura, the history of the Marian dogmas. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? Do you know him? Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. Many of them did not believe in him. So our listeners can go there to read that. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). Yeah. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. That would be one. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. Im not sure what your question is. Im not sure. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? An interview with Steve Baughman. So feel free to answer that briefly. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. Hallow.com/mattfred. Sure. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Well done. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. Shameless plug. No, it doesnt. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. Some of the ways Trent and I would agree that a dogma contradicts scripture is explicitly, implicitly, or partially. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. Jesus does not rebuke her. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? 878 talking about this. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . We discovered it, carbon-dated it, thats the cross Jesus died on. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Thats all I wanted to say. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. Thank you very much, Trent. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Yeah. 15. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? The relevance would be that you are using it. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. What about after the apostolic age? I actually had the opposite situation and as I began to study scripture more in depth, I found to be deep into the Bible to cease to become Catholic. Juan R. Vlez When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Sure. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. Hofstra University, +1 more. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. Thank you, Steve. It is fitting, therefore its true. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Facebook (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Steve Skojec, Christian Apologetics, and the Problem of Faith June 2, 2021 Esther O'Reilly Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Trent, did you want to-. Yeah. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Yeah, no, no, no. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. 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steve christie apologist